Amid our national discussion and evidence of wide-spread mail-in ballot vote fraud; and considering the January 6th role of the Senate to certify the 2020 presidential election; and considering a report from Director of National Intelligence, John Ratcliffe, is forthcoming with previous assertions of “foreign interference”; and considering five states are sending dual sets of electors; there has been some discussion about “The Guarantee Clause” within the constitution and how it might uniquely apply to 2020.
Here’s the discussion as best I can explain it:
[Article IV – Sec.4] The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
“The Guarantee Clause” – “At its core, the Guarantee Clause provides for majority rule. A republican government is one in which the people govern through elections. This is the constant refrain of the Federalist Papers. Alexander Hamilton, for example, put it this way in The Federalist No. 57: “The elective mode of obtaining rulers is the characteristic policy of republican government.” [citation] “The Clause requires the United States to prevent any state from imposing rule by monarchy, dictatorship, aristocracy, or permanent military rule, even through majority vote. Instead, governing by electoral processes is constitutionally required.”
Additionally, The Electoral Count Act or the Electoral Count Act of 1887 is a US federal law stating procedures for the counting of electoral votes by Congress following a presidential election. It was enacted in the aftermath of the disputed 1876 presidential election between Rutherford B Hayes and Samuel J Tilden. In that election, several states submitted competing slates of electors and a divided Congress was unable to resolve the deadlock. [citation]
Essentially, the Electoral Count Act (1887) requires states to complete their certification of electors to congress by a certain date. The conversation prior to the November 2020 election surrounded whether the COVID pandemic would interfere with the deadlines for state elector certification given the massive numbers of ‘mail-in’ ballots; and whether the counting of them would break through the deadlines imposed by the Act.
A combination of The Guarantee Clause (constitution) and the Electoral Count Act of 1887 (law), establishes the framework for some to argue a fraudulent 2020 election result can successfully be challenged during congressional certification on January 6, 2021. Thus five state legislatures -under Republican control- have sent dual-sets of electors to congress: Arizona, Nevada, Wisconsin, Georgia and Pennsylvania.
Let us be clear… There is little framework for this type of constitutional issue. This is uncharted territory, and consequently there is no body of law or case study upon which to apply a historic reference. However, that said, the issue of Director of National Intelligence, John Ratcliffe, producing a report about foreign election interference could be a fulcrum issue upon which “The Guarantee Clause” of the constitution may apply.
Here’s where it gets interesting…. The Guarantee Clause puts the jurisdiction in the hands of the political bodies, executive branch and legislative branch, to decide the merit of any state vulnerability in their election outcome. There is little, if any, place for the judicial branch to play a role.
In Luther v. Borden (1849), the Supreme Court held questions involving the Guarantee Clause nonjusticiable, meaning that any remedy for a violation would lie with Congress or the President, not the federal judiciary. Nearly one hundred years later, the Court sweepingly declared that the guarantee of a republican form of government cannot be challenged in court. Colegrove v. Green (1946). (citation)
The federal government, not the state government, ultimately holds the responsibility to protect the entire United States from foreign interference within the Guarantee Clause. This would seem to apply to foreign election interference. “[B]ecause protection against invasion or domestic violence is normally available only from Congress and the President, the structure of this section suggests that the political branches have at least the primary duty to carry out its obligations.”
If DNI Ratcliffe produces a report (prior to January 6th) that outlines foreign interference in the election; and if the argument can be made the states with the contested (dual sets) of electors were subjects/targets of that interference; then a foundation to nullify the electors from the contested states is laid in congress.
In this approach the electoral nullification argument would appear to rest on The Guarantee Clause; where the state election outcome was not valid – as it is not representative of a republican form of government, and the majority vote requirement was manipulated.
If this type of legislative challenge was to take place, there is little precedent for the judicial branch to be involved except to qualify what role The Guarantee Clause would/could play and to what extent the nullification arguments are constitutionally valid.
Again, this is all uncharted territory. However, there are people claiming this process could work to keep President Trump in office. The disqualification of the contested state electors under this argument would ultimately fall upon Vice President Mike Pence who is also President of the Senate and in charge of the January 6th electoral vote certification.
There is a lot of “if-this-then” etc within this framework, and all of it ultimately is predicated on congress challenging the election (still unknown); and VP Mike Pence then deciding which electors would be certified or nullified (long-shot); but that seems to be the argument some are making.
I wonder why DNI John Ratcliffe is taking so long to produce his report?
Last thought… I have absolutely no idea if this can work, I am just summarizing a set of theoretical arguments that appear to be surfacing. Remember, we all want the best outcome for our nation and nerves are frayed…. let us be kind to each-other in fellowship.
“One nation, under GOD“…
.
if… if… if… if… perhaps… if…
unfortunately any area of uncharted waters is not looking good when 99% of the politicians and courts are stocked with jellyback self serving cowards.
If…
President Donald J. Trump is filling the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run. And then some. I’m proud to run right along side him. I’d follow him through hell itself.
Patriots, our great President was made for this moment in history. Stay strong. Keep your head even when all about you are losing theirs. We will win!
Yes, I do believe that our President Trump is channeling Sun Tzu.
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/12/is_nothing_happening_or_is_trump_is_channeling_sun_tzu.html
Wrong,criminals and traitors.
if…if…if…if…perhaps…if… you actually read Sundance’s post:
“The Guarantee Clause puts the jurisdiction in the hands of the political bodies, executive branch and legislative branch, to decide the merit of any state vulnerability in their election outcome. There is little, if any, place for the judicial branch to play a role.”
Your mention of the courts disqualifies your remarks. Troll elsewhere.
Stay the course Patriots!
And TRUMP/PENCE actually control both levers of those political tools.
Trump is the Executive Branch as POTUS and Pence is the Legislative Branch as President of the Senate. In Electoral College politics Pence holds all the cards. There isn’t much the congress critters can do to stop him if he decides to throw out the votes for Biden and count the ones for Trump. I wonder what Pence will do??
Considering that the left has slandered him and his wife repeatedly I don’t imagine he will be inclined to do them any favors unless he believes the election was fair. If he’s seen the evidence I’ve seen then he knows it was rigged.
I agree in concept Deplorable Incisor. Thank you! I am also encouraged by POTUS Trump’s insurance policy (pun intended) with Sen Gohmert filing suit against Mike Pence to provide counter-pressure.
Just to be clear, Louie Gohmert is not a senator. He’s a member of the House from TX.
Thank you Patricia for that correction.
I think those discussions are purposely fogging the question.
So let’s say Pence does what you hope him to do. Does it mean that going forward whoever is the VP will determine who the next president is regardless what the election outcome is? In this case, let’s say Trump wins, does it mean that Republicans would forever control the White House?
That’s a nice thought …… we have had enough of the demons.
Quite honestly, apart for a dozen or so denizens of WADC, I think both parties are toast going forward. I am with my President, and if HE and he alone says, “I did all I could” only then, will I accept whatever comes next. I will not be happy with it, if somehow the Dems stagger into the White House, but there you are.
You act like a Vice President has never influenced an election result. Vice President Thomas Jefferson, as Senate President, did the following, leading to his own presidency:
“In 1801, Georgia’s electors cast their votes for Jefferson and Burr, but their ballots were in plain violation of the Constitution’s explicit formal requirements. If Jefferson had ruled these votes invalid in his capacity as Senate President, one of the Federalist candidates, Adams or Pinckney, might well have emerged victorious from the House runoff required under the Constitution. But Jefferson used his authority as Senate President to exclude his Federalist competitors, restricting the runoff to a two-man race between himself and Aaron Burr. This allowed him to emerge victorious on the thirty-sixth ballot.”
https://scholarship.law.gwu.edu/faculty_publications/774/
When election fraud is as evident as it is now ? YES!
If then. If the Republicans rig the race and therefore it goes to the Congress to be settled again the only reason it’s going to Congress is because Dems rigged the race and there’s 13 million more votes for Biden than there are even electors in the several States.
This phony logic seems to belong only to the left which is why they shouldn’t be in charge of anything! ( Or should I say the deep state because this childlike attempt to steal the country from American countrymen it’s so Patently absurd!)
The VP’s job is to open all the envelopes and count them – **all the envelopes** – both Republican and Democrat. If a State sent two groups of Electors the votes of both groups are opened and counted.
The Presidential election results of these States ARE contested as proven by two groups of electors sent from each State were the election was contested.
VP Pense CAN NOT show favoritism and should not pick an choose, so count them all.
So Biden has claimed 306 votes, and President Trump has 232 – there are 84 contested votes at large.
When all the electors votes are counted Biden will still have 306 and President Trump will have 316.
If you go alphabetically and the first candidate to reach 270 votes wins, then it is over when when you get to Texas – President Trump has 292 and Biden only has 268 – So President Trump wins again.
So here is the TRUTH – if the elector’s votes are opened and counted as the Constitution procribes – there is no way President Trump can lose and no way Biden can win.
I didn’t realize that that is the process.
Maybe there is still a chance!
There must be a way to resolve the issue of materially contested Presidential Elections.
It appears to me that Pence is placed in the present position by the fact that there were blatant election irregularities in certain states in which state election officials made their own rules outside of required legislative authority. These officials cited the Covid pandemic as the reason for this end run around state voting laws. If the Democrats don’t like the fact that a Republican VP gets to determine which electors to recognize, then maybe they should follow state law. It’s really pretty simple. Either follow existing voting law or change the law in the legislature.
Pence will either be the R’s nominee in 2024 or thrown to the ash heap of RINO’s; depending on what he does on the 6th?
In the Bible read the story of Esther and how that turned out for Hamon. Vice President Pence is a Christian and if he is not true to God then also he will follow the same path as Hamon and pay the price for betraying this Nation. And ultimately he will have to answer to our Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
Oh, please. Stop calling people names
The courts have had many chances to hear the complaints of voter fraud and theft. They have declined to do so and have abandoned their judicial role.
I’ve been wondering if SCOTUS wishes to be spared the badmouthing they received after the hanging chads business in Florida in 2008, when Democrats decried the idea that the court decided who’s president. I’ve gotten the idea that they know this procedure in the Senate is available and appropriate, and that they’ve declined to hear cases because, left to their own devices, the Republicans have the possibility of undoing a fraudulent election, and ultimately lead the way to reversing the vote count, thereby SORTA deciding who’s president.
This is the system…and the system is subverted and rigged…PDJT has told us from the very beginning “The system is rigged and we must drain the swamp”…
Remember waiting on the THREE Horowitz reports…6 months late and no bias…The Durham investigation, late spring 2020…nothing yet…
Hopefully, Radcliff comes up with DNI report, even if he has to write it himself…Just think, Obama had TWO intelligence reports written in 30 days!!!
ODNA head Ratliffe has said the reason there is no final , written report is that obstructionist elements within the IC are deliberately dragging their feet trying to run out the clock . But , that does not mean that Ratliffe has not orally briefed the POTUS on those findings .The POTUS can act on those findings in the eventuality that it becomes necessary to invoke the Insurrection Act .
We are not a country that waits on reports!! Or are we?
Is there a deck(s) of cards of the swamp like in a war a few years ago.
Unfortunately, while there is a group of Americans who believe in their country and in the enforcement of it’s laws they have failed to realize that those laws mean nothing anymore. For more than 30 years many have pointed out the rise of the ‘other’s’ and good Americans just assumed laws would take of them while they did nothing, they were wrong and now it’s too late.
Words and laws mean nothing anymore and people have become too afraid and complacent to provide the action.
Patriots are asking what they can do at this point to save our country. Read this article & start burning up phone lines & sending emails to legislators identified therein. Article needs to go viral.
The list at the end of this post contains the contact information of the ten most important people in America that almost no one knows. Here is why YOU MUST CONTACT THEM!!!
Ten People Who Need to Know that America Is Watching Them:
https://www.shestokas.com/constitution-and-its-people/ten-people-who-need-to-know-that-america-is-watching-them/
https://twitter.com/i/status/1343673164270858241
Some of these numbers have full mailboxes and can not take messages.
All of them have physical residences and offices….
I am simply giving information, not making a complaint.
The article also includes Twitter and Facebook addresses for most of these 10 guys. Anyone who uses either of these two medias – follow these guys, how sobering would it be for them to have their twitter followers number jump from 500 to 50 or 100K in a matter of hours.
Thank you for the contact information. I’ve just emailed all 10 of them.
Richie:
I bookmarked this website. Thanks.
I learned about it from Lin Wood on Twitter. fyi
Thank you for the information. I just emailed all 10 of them and will be forwarding the list to others.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/explaining-how-congress-settles-electoral-college-disputes
“Objections to individual state returns must be made in writing by at least one Member each of the Senate and House of Representatives. If an objection meets these requirements, the joint session recesses and the two houses separate and debate the question in their respective chambers for a maximum of two hours,” the CRS said. “The two houses then vote separately to accept or reject the objection. They then reassemble in joint session, and announce the results of their respective votes. An objection to a state’s electoral vote must be approved by both houses in order for any contested votes to be excluded.”
Article 2 makes no provision regarding objections, it simple states that all certificates from electors are opened and votes are counted, this would mean that Trump would get 317 and Biden 306 because there are two sets of electors from seven states.
Richard, this would be the most magnificent and elegant solution to the issue! No objections. Pence accepts all electors submitted. Game over.
Elegant because of its simplicity
So instead of subtracting both slates you add both slates. That is certainly a strict reading of the text!
Could it be this simple? No opinions required, just follow the instructions. I love it. Will it happen?
It’s too easy so would never happen, but beyond that, cannot be done that way, because the total 317+306 = 623, exceeds the total electoral votes available of 538.
Details, details, details…numbers didnt matter during the elections…blame it on the virus, mail in electoral votes without signatures and Pence Adjudicated them…(sarc)
not if there are contesting electors. There are as many as there are….
States can’t have two sets of electors counted. The states have a specific number of electors based on population. Counting both sets would double that number?
This is brilliant. Please write it to http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact. Also, call into, or write Rush Limbaugh Program. If you are a member, you message surely get through. How does one reach Mike Pence? Just brilliant…..elegant solution, yes, seems to be. Who could complain. It’s like Solomon’s baby wise.
The January 6 stratagem relies upon the premise that the Electoral Count Act is unconstitutional, because it conflicts with the language of the Constitution. That is a “valid argument,” but a weak one. It is similar to the argument that Obama was disqualified by not being a natural born citizen because his dad was not a citizen. It is a valid argument but will not be a winning argument. The language that the Electoral Count Act purports to conflict with the 12th Amendment is: “The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted” The entire stratagem relies on the interpretation that this clause gives the VP plenary power to reject certified electoral votes. It certainly does not state that. The Constitution only says that the VP will open the votes. It doesn’t even say that the VP will count the votes. It uses the passive voice that the votes shall be counted. It could be argued that his power to open the votes presumes the power to count them too, and thus he is the one who can reject the votes if there is a dispute, but there in NOTHING in the Constitution that states that. It could easily be argued that since the VP must open the votes in the presence of Congress and the votes are then (passive voice) counted that the VP and Congress together are required to count the votes. That would give Congress the right to determine disputed votes just like stated in the Electoral Count Act. The Constitution is just silent in this regard, but given this thin reed argument, I simply cannot see the Constitution (or the SCOTUS’ interpretation of the Constitution) giving the authority to disqualify electoral votes and potentially disenfranchising millions of voters to a single person who may politically benefit from the decision. It is just not going to happen.
It better happen.
yup. “Whatever it takes” to save the Republic.
What happens to the millions of voters who were disenfranchised by illegal ballots? What will they do about the states that didn’t follow the state laws in choosing electors?
A commonly promulgated misuse of the term “disenfranchised”, which simply means preventing someone from voting , in the first place.
The voters you are talking about voted, and HAD their votes counted, therefore they were not “disenfranchised”, however their right to vote WAS impinged upon, thru DISSOLUTION.
THAT is, their legitimate votes, were subject to disolution by the illegitimate, illegal, invalid votes such that they did NOT get “One man, one vote”, but something LESS.
Technicality, but I think accurate.
Excellent!
The MAGA voter was only worth 78% of a Communist voter. Simplest way to put it using Dominion ‘fractional voting’ speak.
If the shoe was on the other foot would they do it
One Trump vote, one fractional man (like .77). One Biden vote (1.23) one man with cancerous growth on lying nose. Per Sydney, approx.
Carolina, your questions should have been easily answered by the Supreme Court three weeks ago…My understanding is Texas and 19 other states ask basically the same questions…
Please explain then why Sen Gohmert filed suit against VP Mike Pence.
Gohmert’s suit’s objective is to declare the Electoral Count Act of 1887 unconstitutional. That way, the 12th Amendment would control the vote counting and what Pence can and cannot do.
Right now the ECA is the control governing the counting of the votes, and in that case Pence cannot make the decision himself to simply discard the Biden electors from the states that sent two sets of electors. He would need the process we’ve been discussing, where a Senator and Rep must object and then go through the 2 hour debate process and vote, etc.
Prior to the ECA, Thomas Jefferson resolved the issue of two sets of electors by discarding one set – he chose the set of electors that nominated himself.
Richard Nixon was presented with two sets of electors from Hawaii. He had been declared the winner of HI but then subsequently a recount was done and Kennedy found to be the winner. Both sets went to Congress and Nixon chose to discard the electors that were in his own favor.
Not sure of the particulars though regarding Nixon- I did read he simply did what Thomas Jefferson did, which of course ECA was in effect at that time since 1887.
So with the ECA the process is no longer a simple matter of Pence making the choice – and so Louie aims to have it declared unconstitutional.
Thank you The Italian Job! Appreciate the explanation about the Gohmert suit.
So the courts are now pulled back into it to decipher the constitutionality of whether Mike Pence can solely object to fraudulent Biden electors/or decide to accept the alternate POTUS Trump electors? Would appreciate your response if I am interpreting your reply correctly?
On a side note, remarks about Jefferson and Nixon are very instructive.
Yes, that’s how I’m understanding it essentially. Just saw something else on another thread where the 11 Trump electors in Arizona have joined Louie’s case – they are asking the judge to determine’s Pence’s role.
These articles are very helpful:
https://www.thepostemail.com/2020/12/22/are-the-electoral-colleges-votes-valid-part-i/
https://www.thepostemail.com/2020/12/26/are-the-electoral-colleges-votes-valid-part-ii/
Excellent! Thanks again The Italian Job!
Re: 11 Trump electors in Arizona- applaud the plan for the worst/hope for the best approach!
VP Pence wouldn’t be disenfranchising millions of voters, he would be honoring the franchise of the voters who legitimately won. The only voters disenfranchised would be the losers who are trying to steal the election, unless you are going to argue that there was no voter fraud...
I simply cannot see the Constitution (or the SCOTUS’ interpretation of the Constitution) giving the authority to disqualify electoral votes and potentially disenfranchising millions of voters to a single person who may politically benefit from the decision. It is just not going to happen.
Yet that is precisely what Thomas Jefferson did, which in turn enabled him to claim himself President.
But that is the process that was followed per the Constitution prior to the Electoral Count Act of 1887, at least as I understand it.
So Nixon did it as well – see HI, so not certain how so, since the ECA was then in effect.
Yup, you just want the illegal votes to be counted …
Ignoring the laws that were broken to obtain and process them …
Spoken like a true lawfare fellow… the end justifies the means …
Sorry, not in America …
The illegal votes should be discarded, not counted and the people responsible for them should be serving hard time.
America ceased being a nation of laws many years ago.
At some point patriots are going to figure that out and become the biggest mob.
Until we do, we can expect the treatment that the current “biggest mob” doles out.
So disenfranchising 74 million is ok????
compared to angering China, yes. The Great Awakening.
The VP can decide not to open contested States’ votes by ascertaining that the election did not legally occur in the disputed States as it did not follow its own legislative rules. The VP has plenary power to make this decision and not to open the tainted votes. The count of opened votes can then occur—final count 232 Trump vs. 222 Biden.
Isn’t it about time that we on the conservative Right stopped playing by the Marquess of Queensbury rules?? Do you ever see the Commie Dems worrying about the niceties of the rules of law and our Constitution?
Yet here we go again, only this time we’re in the midst of Civil War 2 that is about to get red hot in the next 10 days or so.
Instead of doing “whatever it takes” like everyone is saying, we have people who are worried about the niceties of the active and passive voice of what’s stated in a Constitution that is basically being spat upon by the Democrat Commies.
It seems to me that our President Trump is giving the “rules of law” one last shot before he does what needs to be done- up to and including declaring martial law.
This is it. This is one battle we cannot afford to lose. We have to play as down and dirty as the Commies. We are not going to be bringing proverbial knives to a gun fight.
^^^^^^This! You speak truth to fuzziness
I understood it that if objected they won’t count if it passes a vote then since neither candidate makes it to 270 then it goes to the contingent election. Just trying to figure this out. Thanks for the replies
On the report that Ratcliff is no hurry to get, foriegn interference is documented in what sidney released last night. First 3 pages from our cisa. That is probably why she dropped part of the kracken. Hey one can hope.
Taken from Parler
BREAKING NEWS!! Pennsylvania legislators issue press release calling for decertification of Pennsylvania election after finding that there were 170,830 MORE votes counted than the total number of voters! Biden’s “lead” in PA is only 80,555 votes.
And Parler is getting it from where? It would be wonderful news but is it legit?
Gateway Pundit
Thanks Right to reply! Perhaps Pennsylvania legislators have had a reality check and decided their own personal grift not worth their own personal incarceration.
Note to Eeyore naysayers: Talk to the hand trolling friends about how it will never happen.
Stay the course Patriots! Time is upon us to consolidate support for our freedoms and POTUS Trump!
We have to rely on VP Pence? We are doomed.
Why do you say that? At the least – judging by his finances – he may be the most honest man in Congress.
Either Pence is so deeply spiritual that he comes across as aloof / an alien, or else he’s a player and a con. My tuning fork has never been able to zero in on his frequency.
I’m sure I’m not alone on this.
The other day I listened to him give a speech. I was standard political, cliched, boring, with appropriate moments for appropriate applause. My mind wandered a lot.
Maybe that’s just him, but he’ll never win a personality contest or be a motivational speaker. How did this guy ever get elected to Congress? I must be missing something.
Somebody educate me.
When Trump speaks it like he’s sitting on a couch at your efficiency apartment just talking regular talk, eating a bologna sandwich.
IKR? He talks just like a politician, but everything he says is supportive of PDT.
How did this guy ever get elected to Congress? I must be missing something.
Somebody educate me.
Do you remember Dan Quayle? Think of him as the template for Indiana politicians—averse to controversy and risk, middle of the road on any given issue.
Very few politicians can talk like Trump. Reagan had it, hence “the great communicator”. Its one of many of DJT’s personal qualities that makes him so good at this.
Notice how at a rally, with 20-40,000 people, he seems like he is TALKING.
Anyone he calls up to “say a few words” seems like they are SCREAMING.
He lets the microphone do the work, and tunes out the loud background roar, that emanates from such a large group of humans. Not as easy as he makes it seem, believs me!
And yes, Pence bores the pants off me, his speaking style conveys great sincerity, but if I heard him, one more time, urge us to continue to follow the guidelines, to stop the spread, I swear I was gonna kill something.
He has had a unique role as VP; NORMALLY, a Pres candidate picks a pitbull vp, so that the “top of the ticket” can stay “above the fray”, while the vp is the attack dog.
Here, DJT was the natural ‘attack dog’, so he picked Mr. Stable as his running mate.
Pence did o.k. against kamala, in the debate, beyond that I don’t have a good read on him, either.
Personally I am not pinning my hopes on Pence, and some nebulous theory, as I think it all comes down to politics.
IMHO,
If Biden is declared POTUS, that is the end of the Uniparty and Mitch, regardless of what procedures they use.
Its POLITICAL, and there is no way Mitch survives, or the Republican party, if they countenance the steal.
No justification or excuse can save him/them. And, since the real power of the Uniparty has always been in Mitch and the Decepticons FACILITATING the Dems and Pelosi, expose and destroy the (phony) “RIGHT” wing, and the whole thing collapses, like a bird with one wing.
Is Mitch willing to bring it ALL down, just to prevent PDJT from having a second term?
Not his style, not consistent with his behavior to date, so I bet NO, he will fold.
Makes sense, to a degree, except for the now proven fact of the Uniparty’s ballot control. Mitch’s & his minions’ future re-election odds may be at greater risk due to their complicity in DJT’s removal, but they can just gin up more false votes next time around, No?
Talk radio. Pence was a conservative radio show host through the ’90s before successfully running for Congress. I suspect that’s why he can put whole sentences together. You can’t live on radio stumbling and fumbling for words.
He does not have Trump’s charisma, or Rush Limbaugh’s. But he’s a competent talker.
My tuning fork has also wondered about Pence. I will neither forget his weaseling out as governor when he vetoed the Indiana Defense of Marriage Act nor his key role in getting General Flynn fired.
We need to really look at Pence and see what color hat he wears. It could be off white. Our last VP was on the take, HC was on the take. Someone(s) in the WH most likely on the take. We don’t see or hear from him much. Trust but Verify was said once.
Laughable! Kim is right. Are you really going to compare Biden’s and Clinton’s net worth to Pence’s 1.5 million:?
Nice touch on the trust but verify talking points but you are not addressing sheeple on this site.
LOL, you need to check with your mother ship on a better response than that!
The Supreme Court just cannot rule against minority run cities like Detroit, Milwaukee, Atlanta and Philadelphia and negate the vote of Blacks no matter how blatant the fraud by Democrat elections officials! That’s the insanity we are up against. A Black teenager drives his car through the barricades and plate glass doors into a Ford dealership. Then jumps on the hoods of a dozen new cars stomping the roofs. Refuses orders to submit to arrest and instead attacks the rookie police officer trying to take his gun then is shot. It’s the fault of the police officer!
That when you put lead in his ass and any of his thug friends that want to riot
We have withdrawn consent. Those who threaten life and property should be confronted by whatever means they will understand.
As for the Supreme court, if they are indeed afraid of rioting, then we must give them something to be far more afraid of. If they regard that as a valid constitutional argument, then so be it.
C J Roberts is not afraid of Rioting – he just used that because he had to say something and he doesn’t care that we know he is lying.
Roberts knows as well as we do that the Democrats nominally control the rioters, I say nominal control because I am fairly certain that the thugs are really controlled (paid) by the Soros group and the CCP.
Agree Roberts just used the threat/fear of rioting as an excuse.
Also agree CCP recruited and paid rioters.
Thats what the raid/closing down of the Chinese consulatevin Houston was about; they ran the operation out of there.
Used AI, to scan thru I-net, to identify people who, by social media posts, etc were deemed as likely prospects, recruited them and used tiktok videos to instruct them in “how to riot”.
The CCP are resourcful, and have deep pockets!
Very resourceful, they invest in Wall Street and their anti-American adult children. Just ask the Big Guy, “where’s hunter?”
Iconic American Companies Owned by Chinese Investors
Inside the privileged lives of protesters busted for rioting in
Manhattan
Tim Kaine’s son charged for Trump rally incident in March
7 gallows and 7 ropes. Those bastards are not above the law of truth, justice and common sense.
Rejecting fraudulent votes does not ‘negate the vote of Blacks’ or any other Americans. It affirms the legal voters of the country. Accepting fraudulent votes negates everyones vote.
Well, about 90% of Blacks voted for Biden so far more of them actually benefited from the election fraud than were disenfranchised by very same fraud!
besides,the content of the character not the color of the skin…
Great article, Sundance, thank you!
Keep praying that it is God’s will to save our one nation under Him!
Actually there IS precedent for this to happen. I honestly had not heard of the The Guarantee Clause (interesting), but the electoral college vote (or part thereof) can and has been previously challenged. [https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32717.pdf] This actually happened before in 1969, and in 2005. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_Count_Act]
In another development, Rep. Louie Gohmert is suing Mike Pence to overturn the 2020 election results. This all will get rather interesting I think. [https://trueconservativepundit.com/2020/12/28/report-republicans-sue-vice-president-mike-pence-over-the-2020-election/] While I do not believe Pence has the power to do anything other then preside over the Jan. 6th certification, there is certainly a chance to overturn the perceived Biden win.
The electoral college vote was challenged in 2000, after Bush v Gore.
ONE representative stood in objection. The chair asked her if any Senators would join in the objection.
None did, and so per the rules the chair refused to recognise the objection.
Some 20-30 representatives will object, THIS time. Per script, Pence is required to ask “Do ANY Senators stand, to JOIN in the objection?”
If none do, Mitch and the Decepticons lose ALL power, in that moment, never to return, and the Republican party is henceforth a party with no base.
IMHO, he will NOT destroy himself and his party, just to deny PDJT a second term.
With all us watching, and making the building vibrate with our chants, he simply can’t do it.
And, once he allows ONE Senator to stand in objection, no amount of procedural shenanigans can change the fundamental equation.
Affirm fraudulent results, and your power is instantly stripped from you, your party is DEAD, and PDJT is free, once out of office to form his own party, which destroys the whole Uniparty concept.
A very pyhric victory, for McConnell. He won’t go there, is my bet.
Like the Ukraine shampeachment trial, the details won’t matter, the outcome is preordained.
IMHO, PDJT has already won, its just a matter of “letting it play out”.
So if Trump does not win, it will be all Pence fault now? It’s like ceo of a big corporation loses support of shareholders and he expects the VP of investor relations who’s at best the moderate of shareholders meeting to overwrite the decision. I am sick and tired people go after Pence. He’s one of the few steady hands in this administration.
Trump already won. It is the fault of the Tyrant – and only the Tyrant- and his biggest systemic fraud organization, that we are in the situation we are now in…
Trump Pence 2021!
Well, here’s an interesting article
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/12/is_nothing_happening_or_is_trump_is_channeling_sun_tzu.html
To reassure Israel and the Arabs that PDJT’s reelection is secure, and tell them to proceed with pursueing peace, and an alliance against Iran.
They need that reassurance, and he can give it to them.
Dear God, are you listening to Dutchman? I just got a hit of hope!
Mike Pence, your immortal soul is on the line, before you God has placed the decision of Life vs Death, please along with 100+ million Christians choose Life.
you got that right
Yes, let’s hope he sees your worthy comment. May God remove the scales from his eyes so he sees the truth and is not deceived by evil.
Led by Lone Star State Rep. Louie Gohmert, a coalition of outgoing President Donald Trump’s right-wing loyalists asked a federal judge on Sunday to gut a post-Reconstruction era law in order give Vice President Mike Pence the power to determine the winner of the 2020 presidential election on Jan. 6, 2021. https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/leading-new-texas-rebellion-louie-gohmert-sues-mike-pence-because-vp-lacks-authority-to-overturn-joe-bidens-election-win/
If by “outgoing” they mean warm, sociable, friendly, and energetic, then yes, the President is outgoing.
I believe its PDJT “Loyalists” that are outgoing. I thought Gohmert won reelection?
Only one in either House of Congress, with the guts to call out Mitch.
Just as the Great Lou Dobbs is the only one on network news willing to do the same.
EVERYONE else, Nunes, Jordan, etc and Maria, etc simply WILL NOT call out Mitch. He has too much power, and they all fear him.
Coach Tommy said he would call out the fraud.
The Counting Convention is not an Article 1 Congressional power.
It is Article 2: Executive. The chair of the unicameral is the President of the Senate. He cannot be removed, he has plenary power to define and maintain order.
Furthermore, the House and Senate cannot negate the rights of States to have electors of their choosing – even with a unanimous vote. That is not in the Constitution. Only the President of the Senate can do that. Again, an Article 2 power.
It is a strange system to the democratic mind, but it is not an error. The Founders intentionally made it this way for a reason. There will come a time in the life of a nation, when one man will correct the error of an entire system – without this ability, the civilization will inevitably die.
The President of the Senate’s role in this, as described in the Constitution and the Twelfth Amendment is a feature, not a glitch.
Nicely explained here: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/12/its_for_mike_pence_to_judge_whether_a_presidential_election_was_held_at_all.html
Thanks for posting this most important article again. In my opinion it is THE most important essay on the political internet in the past week.
We need to keep posting this piece on the different threads here and elsewhere so people can better understand what will happen on January 6th.
Nothing is over.
We have vicious criminals running most of the government and they will kill NOT to answer for their crimes and avoid prison for their treasonous crimes.
This is how it has always gone throughout world history. We are not facing anything new. It is a replay of man’s fallen and wicked nature.
People should not foolishly believe this can be stopped without an all-out uprising.
Is this how America ends?
Are millions of Americans really going to let the wicked communists take over by stealing a presidential election?
Has honest voting ended in the USA?
Nope.
Sundance, you just nailed why the SCOTUS couldn’t take the State v. State lawsuit from Texas to challenge the election. The Guarantee Clause is, quite simply, “nonjusticiable” and the courts have no remedy for a fraudulent national election. the remedy was spelled out – and used – in the constitution: the states’ legislatures have all the power to select any electors they want and how they want – even if that way is deemed fraudulent. very good resource you have here. do you mind if i link it at my blog?
FYI, re the Texas lawsuit, when SCOTUS rejected it proforma, that is known as “preserving the issue” which means, ah yes… a fraud can be brought before them in another setting. it ALSO means… that NO Democrat objection to what happens Jan 6 could be brought to SCOTUS either. the Guarantee Clause cuts both ways.
PS: didn’t VP Thomas Jefferson discard the disputed elector votes for the ones that HE preferred and voted himself into the Presidency? or was that somebody else? and wasn’t that deliberate act also taken to the SCOTUS which threw the challenge right out? just asking… your wingman, reeko
didn’t VP Thomas Jefferson discard the disputed elector votes for the ones that HE preferred and voted himself into the Presidency?
yep
Yes but that was before the advent of mass communication broadcast networks, cable tv news, and the internet. Today’s citizenry will see this in real time and won’t accept one person deciding the winner of the election. Especially someone who was on the ticket. None of this is ver going to happen. Pence is GOPe to the core and he won’t rock the boat.
I think Jefferson refused to discard questionable ballots, giving him and Burr a tie, which later resulted in Jefferson being elected. The importance here is there is strong sentiment that votes from the disputed state should not have counted which is what some are hoping Pence will do
This is excellent reeko! I hadn’t thought of it this way. If in fact this was SCOTUS’s reasoning then it makes perfect sense. And, recall that Thomas and Alito both agreed that the case should be heard due to original jurisdiction, but also made a short statement essentially saying that the court still would not be able to offer a remedy.
As to Pence doing what Thomas Jefferson did, the obstacle to that remedy – which does not involve having a bunch of Senators and Reps objecting and adjourning and voting, etc., per my understanding, is the Electoral Count Act. That Act is what now controls the process and why we would need Senators and Reps to object, etc.
As such, Louie Golhmert’s suit vs. Pence is about having the ECA declared unconstitutional. FYI, the ECA was created to amend the 12th Amendment, which itself amended Article II – according to the articles below:
https://www.thepostemail.com/2020/12/22/are-the-electoral-colleges-votes-valid-part-i/
https://www.thepostemail.com/2020/12/26/are-the-electoral-colleges-votes-valid-part-ii/
So, we’re worried about unchartered territory? Heck, election fraud on this massive scale is unchartered territory so it wasn’t we the people that brought us to this point.
The critical element is did we have a fair, legal, and accurate accounting of our election? It’s a Yes or No answer. Who would bet their life on it being accurate and correct (within the small margins of error) such that the outcome of Biden is still the winner? Anyone? Bueller? The burden of proof is on the states to affirm that it reflects the lawful vote and will of their people. It’s not Trump’s responsibility to provide an accurate count of the cheating–just evidence that sufficient cheating and fraud has occurred such that one cannot beyond reasonable doubt state that the election is accurate. Thus, the vote is rejected for those states in doubt, no one reaches the magic 270 electoral votes and the Constitution has a remedy for this type of circumstance. Whether the states or VP Pence has the guts (read integrity) to step up make the call, it doesn’t really matter. The Dems could have requested audited recounts if they were that confident they won legitimately. Instead they have tried to interfere with any effort to get an accurate count. Thus, given the magnitude of evidence, VP Pence should declare the states in question uncertifiable and thus the legislature should determine the president. There’s no guarantee that a Republican legislature will vote for Trump–as Sundance has noted, the Swamp wants Trump gone, but since the states did not perform sufficient due diligence to validate the vote, this is the fairest method to resolve the dispute.
B.A. Brightlight;
As a legal matter, and the same reasoning you lay out quite well;
Normally, the one who initiates a court case (prosecution in criminal case, plaintiff in civil case) is the one with ghe burden of proof.
However, in “election law” this is reversed; the one initiating the case and alleging fraudulent or illegal/illegitimate ballots, does NOT have the burden of proof.
The one CONTESTING the suit, has the burden of proof to prove the votes ARE Legal, valid, legitimate votes.
Just as a criminal defendant doesn’t have to prove their innocence, the prosecution has to prove they are guilty.
Extending that concept to the election, those insisting it was legitimate? PROVE it!
THEY control the access to the paper ballots and the machines. Therefore THEY have the ability, and the obligation, and have had the opportunity to prove it was legitimate, all along.
But, its NOT a legal issue, its Political, Jake.
But this gives support to the concept that Pence should not accept the votes for the contested states. The fact that 5 states sent two sets of electors gives “proof” that they are not confident in the accuracy of their state’s vote. Thus, you don’t count them. They are still contested. Since the courts have refused to hear the testimony to resolve this issue, the results remain in dispute and cannot be certified by the president of the Senate, VP Pence.
Seven states, not only five, have sent two slates of electors: AZ, GA, MI, NM, NV, PA, & WI.
If this is truly uncharted legal territory, rest assured THE LAWFARE GROUP has gamed this issje a thousand times and know exactly how to circumvent JUSTICE, because that’s what they do…
Please, “uncharted territory.” There is no map. A chart is a nautical map. We’re not trying to hire a bus here.
Otherwise good comment. Pence should have no qualms about refusing to count the disputed states votes. It should go to the house to be voted by state delegation. The courts, especially the Supreme Court, have been trying to tell us this is a political matter, not a legal matter. It’s too big for them.
I WISH I had faith in Mike Pence…
I always felt in my heart he is a deep state plant and is biding his time for his “turn” as they think business as usual will recommence…
LORD! I hope I am wrong!
His turn?
If PDJT loses (illegally of course), Pence will never see the inside of the White House.
No Republican will win ANYTHING for a long-long time.
And, it’ll probably only be in a galaxy far-far away……………….
The anointed one won, so how can he lose? He must be inaugurated on Jan 20, 2021.
True. Pence probably doesn’t have much of a political future anyway, but he certainly has no prayer of ever being president except after a second Trump term. I’m sure he understands that.
If Roberts had not gone to Epstein Island we would have had a hearing in the Supreme Farce.
No, cause if Roberts wasn’t compromised, Mitch would have never allowed him to be confirmed, instead it would be some OTHER Harvard law pedophile or deviant, in Roberts place.
SEE how it works?
Son of God loves PURE light.
https://twitter.com/PatrickByrne/status/1343761641050152961
I listened to the whole thing.
Highly recommended.
Yes, let’s fellowship while our heirs are sold into slavery.
I see little hope for the USA so long states have the electronic voting and mail in.
I supervised and ran polls in a number of Canadian National Elections. Any ballot cheating is minuscule. For example, in a community center full of polls. Every party with a candidate has a representative sitting right at every poll. They can challenge every vote. You need a voter card, ID or a person to vouch for your identity. The paper ballots are marked, numbered etc. with a system that prevents counterfeits. When the votes are cast each party has reps to watch the returning officer count of each ballot box, and when done the boxes are sealed and turned in to Elections Canada with a separate form record kept too.
This is universal across the nation.
Any cheating is done via unfair media coverage, but in Canada the Globalists don’t need cheating when they have 4 essential liberal parties in the NDP, Liberals, Conservatives and Greens.
Regarding why it’s taking so long for Ratcliffe to produce his report: I believe I saw earlier reporting that he was waiting on the intelligence agencies to coordinate something on it. No surprise if the agencies are slow-walking this.
Then again, in a poker game if you haven’t figured out who the “mark” is in the first half an hour— it’s you. Ratliff in holding off on the report is making it hard (compressing the timeline)for the swamp to object.
If it does come down to Pence the only question is if he plans to run for POTUS after Trump. If the answer is yes then he should and will swing it in Trumps favour if there is evidence of foreign interference. If he is the one who puts Trump back in office we should all be grateful and vote for him in 2024.
“For such a time as this.” What if Pence is the ace card someone had reserved to be revealed right before the last move?
if-this-then… I’ve no faith in Pence and I can’t see with as far as they have taken this disaster anyone with integrity will do anything that actually matters.
However, I predict much grandstanding and baseless lip service from several republicans safely tucked into the impossible fold of knowing there’s no effect.
As always I appreciate the honesty in the post Sundance.
“One Nation, under God”- me thinks that went away some time ago. We are a divided nation, the Democrats/Communists in disguise and holding many of the levers of power against Republicans, who insist on God, country and family.
As a practicing, traditional Catholic, I can tell you that the reason, we are in this mess, and close to losing our country and liberty and being enslaved in a communist-led government, is because the Vatican leadership and many of the bishops around the world, have gone into apostasy. The Popes have refused to obey Our Lady of Fatima’s request to have the Pope, in union with all the bishops, consecrate Russia, by name, on the same day and hour, to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. As a result of this wholesale refusal to do so since June 13, 1929, when She specifically came to ask for it, the Vatican has failed to do so. As a result, many bad things could have been prevented, including WWII.
To learn more, visit fatima.org.
https://fatima.org/about/fatima-the-facts/the-consecration-of-russia/
PS: The message of Fatima is applicable to all men, in all places and all religions. It is NOT a strictly Catholic message.
Microsoft is headlining a story that he was a cop hating weed head. And he chose Christmas to become a suicide bomber. Uh huh. Again, it’s like in Hollywood after 9-11 when they did all the shows with terrorist bad guys and then CAIR lobbying made them change them all to white dudes.
It’s like they took the BLM script and “whitewashed it.”
Or found some psycho to pin their crimes on.
The NSA found an oddball in the area they needed to hide evidence and blew the poor man up.
Whatever. The FB Lie is a criminal outfit and the only story I’ll believe is they blew up a patsy to hide their election stealing. We know a lot, there’s something else the FB Lie is trying to cover up.
Like AT&T routing election data to Beijing which could trigger a legit response.
Here’s what we are fighting for… hold the line and understand what happens if we don’t. Valid info to support seriously looking into this option further. https://www.patreon.com/posts/2020-election-is-45031044
I believe that VP Pence is an honorable man and courageous in Jesus Christ, and will do the right thing on January 6, disallowing fraudulent electoral votes.
I humbly suggest that we offer him our support and prayers as he faces what awaits him on January 6. It is his moment of truth and I am sure he is praying for guidance, as are we all.
It’s an easy choice for a ‘true’ Christian. Just like President Trump, his Presidency would also be a force against the killing of unborn for another eight years ‘after’ President Trump’s second term (12 more years of standing against this evil). None of which will happen if the President is not rightfully re-elected. In fact the polar opposite will happen.
I don’t know about Mike Pence, but as a true Christian, if I were placed in the same position were I could literally help save millions of the unborn, the decision is just beyond obvious. In fact I would do it even if it violated the Constitution, let alone adhered to it. The oath to protect innocent life is a far higher oath than even the Constitution.
On top of this existential (heaven or hell) issue is the extreme and well documented voter fraud in many states which is clear violation of the Constitution he took an oath to defend. Plus who knows what the DNI has queued up in terms of foreign election interference.
Seriously how does a Christian that took an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies ‘not’ throw out these electors given all the above? What possible motive could eclipse these facts?
Plus, even from a calculating Politician viewpoint; he secures his role as the head of the 100+ million MAGA army in 2024 and 2028. Add in a legitimate voting system nationwide, and we take the House and expand the Senate in 2022, with more MAGA Republicans via a legitimate primary system. In 2024 he would have all he needs to fully implement both his personal plus the MAGA agenda with little opposition.
Or he caves to the swamp for a few bucks along with a one way ticket to hell, and the nation becomes a communist dictatorship along the lines the CCP among the most anti-Christian organizations on this Earth.
They should do what the Democrats would do if the situation were reversed. Time for the gloves to come off.
Pense as the president of the senate and there for a member of the Senate could object independently for the Senate
In one respect I like the fact that “something” concerning the governing of our great nation is out of the control of the politicians and unelected judges and agency employees. It does seem a long shot. We have had similar experiences in the past, although not as complex.
I understand that the “employees” of the intel agencies were refusing to highlight china in the report. Ratcliffe indicated china was heavily involved in the election fraud affair.
I pray our country RETURN to God. Right now we are way outside of God. One cannot turn his face from the power of discernment. Look around. UnGodly activities are blatant and mainstream. We must return to God before we can return to a nation under God.
‘I wonder why DNI John Ratcliffe is taking so long to produce his report?’
I wonder why it took Manchurian Mitch ‘so long’ to let Mr. Ratcliffe become our DNI?
https://www.captainsjournal.com/2020/12/28/the-ukraine-unleashes-an-artillery-barrage-on-joe-and-hunter-biden/
Fraud is FRAUD! If ballot stuffing, no voter ID, illegals voting both from other countries and from altered American rule of law such as allowing felons to vote, manipulated vote counting machines, foreign interference, votes being counted outside of the U.S. and outdated voting rosters allowing the dead and voting more than once in one state or another, then we have reached a point where FRAUD is acceptable. Voting fraud is a criminal felony and has to be prosecuted! No justice, NO PEACE!
I didn’t know about the Guarantee Clause. Thanks for explaining it.
protip:. DNI report is two things.
a. immediate daily product for the President on the United States. hint:. the report has already been received by the only person that really matters…has the power to solve the threat!
b. and then there is a report to congress… one for house and senate intel committees… And other for those not in need to know.
we the people…for better or worse are NOT in the need to know. the president is the priority… first and last.
it’s important to realize “our” timelines are not and do not play into any significant priority or significance.
and given how certain officials AND the media have abused and manipulated the efforts of this administration, it’s wise we understand now more than ever just how closely protected any level of threat and risk data is being handled.
I trust this President. I trust the DNI. I can’t predict what kind of foreign interference and scale is involved. I’m guessing china, russia, iran, germany, uk ..maybe more.
there is a large number of very powerful states who would benefit from installing biden.
case in point:. all that foreign pork in the recent “relief” bill? imagine what it would have been with biden at the helm? Trump has made powerful enemies.
the response should be severe and publicized after the action.
it makes Zero sense to entertain some crazy idea that telegraphing to the world what has happened and what we expect to do about it.
we will no matter what be placed in the same kind of position when we voted for Trump.
it’s about trust;
God Bless America
Alexander Hamilton, for example, put it this way in The Federalist No. 57: “The elective mode of obtaining rulers is the characteristic policy of republican government.” [citation] “The Clause requires the United States to prevent any state from imposing rule by monarchy, dictatorship, aristocracy, or permanent military rule, even through majority vote. Instead, governing by electoral processes is constitutionally required.”
Hamilton was a Socialist. Thus we see the “Hamilton68” group of leftists ‘tracking Russian disinformation’…and the Hamilton broadway show the left was all googleyeyed over. The funny part is The Federalist Papers # 68 was written by Hamilton and deals with the method of appointing the person to be President of the United States, a method which received very little criticism and was considered by the author to be if not perfect at least excellent. Like I said, kinda funny!
Seven (7) states — add Michigan and New Mexico — also sent two envelopes with certified Electors.
” , , , where the state election outcome was not valid – as it is not representative of a republican form of government, and the majority vote requirement was manipulated.”
Where the State election IS NOT VALID, it IS NOT representative of a republican form of government——NO MATTER what caused it to be invalid. Ratcliffe’s report is not required. Proof of fraudulent elections is sufficient.
Ergo,,,,,the States in question should have their elections results dismissed….and no electoral votes will be accepted from them.
Why won’t this election be overturned, despite the evidence of fraud?
We have, as a nation, been bullied. This started in 2016, with the riots in DC around the inauguration of President Trump, continued with sporadic assaults on those identified as Republicans, ultimately in the most remarkable and overt acts of bullying – the shootings of several members of Congress at a baseball field, physical assaults against other identified Republican, a member of Congress on his own lawn, trespass and threats and intimidation at the front door of a member of Congress, physical assaults at public places, and concurrent with these incidents, the violent takeover of several cities.
We’ve seen these incidents. This is bullying. It’s working. SCOTUS will not intervene for fear of further inflaming these bullies. No legislature will intervene, for the same reason. Some of course are on the bullies’ side, some are the bullies themselves.
And we know what it takes to deal with the bully.